Welcome to episode four of Mother, Creator! This is where I share conversations about creativity in motherhood and all the mess, joy, and complexity it can bring.
In this episode, I’m chatting with fellow freelance writer and podcaster Ella Delancey Jones of So Basically, Like and Double Shift about working in the margins of motherhood, using an intuitive 'no', and creating to change the world for our daughters.
Find Ella on Instagram @ellalucie and me on Instagram at @zoepickburn.
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TRANSCRIPT STARTS HERE
Ella: I always say there's no one more efficient than a working mum.
Zoe: Hi, this is Mother Creator, conversations about creativity in motherhood and all the mess and joy and complexity that can bring. I'm Zoe and I'm a writer and today I'm in conversation with Ella Delancey Jones. And I've also got a sore throat.
Ella: I'm Ella. I'm a journalist and copywriter.
Season of motherhood I'm in at the moment is that I have a two years and nine month old little girl, which is, sounds so crazy to even think that I remember when she was nine months, I thought, God, that's. That's gone really quite quickly, but to be two years ahead of that is just insane.
My creativity is definitely writing. So writing has been something that I've done from a young age since I can remember, really. I had those little, remember those diaries of the 90s with the little locks on? I used to do my little short stories in there. And then over time being something fun, it's sort of become a, almost like an outlet for me.
So whenever I feel down or whenever I feel excited, if I feel passionate about something, it's always writing that I turn to. So for me, that's kind of my creativity and that's what I do. It's as normal to me as breathing., if I couldn't write, I would feel kind of very much not myself. So writing's my bag.
Zoe: Yeah, that's obviously very familiar to me. I also had one of the little like lockable diaries in the nineties. So how did, or did, becoming a mother change that creativity and the creative ambitions that you had?
Ella: So motherhood really did change everything for me, to be honest. As I've just said, I, writing for me is kind of something that I do every day. It's something that I need to do.
It feels like an act of survival to me. And then when I got pregnant, I think that the, the mental impact of. Being pregnant and like, "oh my God, we're actually having a baby" really, put a spanner in the works. So obviously we're very lucky to fall pregnant. Polly was much, much wanted, getting pregnant was something that we really wanted to do, but even still like the mental impact of knowing that I was pregnant and what, how our lives were going to change for some reason, everything, just ground to a holt, I had no creativity in me. It felt like, um, it felt there was just like no spark inside and I didn't write for quite a long time. I would say for a good, probably six months. And obviously, you know, when that's your job as well, that was quite hard.
So I had to really force myself, but writing for myself, there was just no creativity and, um, I did at one point, probably a couple of months in really start to panic. But I think I just kind of trusted that at some point that creativity would come back. And luckily it did. So, when I had my little girl I all of a sudden just felt this creativity bubbling up inside me.
It just came back all of a sudden. I don't know whether it was, having the free time now and knowing that she was safe and in the world. And kind of that she was newborn and I could just sit and write and she would just be like breastfeeding or lying on me or something. I think there was that element, but also the other side of it was, I don't know if it sounds a bit like much, but it felt like for me that I wanted to change the world for her.
So. I began writing about things that I really cared about, that I was really passionate about,, and could really just help improve her world. So things like child care, things like paternity leave I wrote about, just anything that I could do to Make the world a better place for her.
And also, I think the fact that I, when I had her, I felt like superwoman. I felt like I've given birth. There's nothing that I can't do. So I just went for it. I feel like if I could do that, there was nothing that I couldn't do. So things that I maybe didn't try my hand out before, topics that felt too big and too meaty, I was just like, do you know what? I can do it. Because I've had a baby.
Zoe: That sounds really familiar. It didn't give me exactly self confidence, it gave me like self-assuredness like I just knew that I was capable of things when I became a mother.
And then can we talk a little bit about what creating looks like in this current season of motherhood? On a practical level, like how do you create? How do you make time to write? How do you maintain that creative practice?
Ella: Yeah. So, I mean, it changes with the seasons, right? So newborn time was amazing. She was just like a little tiny little potato who didn't really move. So it was quite easy to write. and then as she developed things kind of changed and I was very much.
I call it working in the margins of motherhood. So back when she was having three 30 minute naps a day. So I'd have an hour and a half out of the whole day to find that creativity and really get efficient with it.
But, now she's a lot older I think this is like a LinkedIn guru kind of thing. So I'm , trying not to sound lame, but it's about designing your life. So, , that does sound a bit wanky, but I think what I mean by that is just To carve out the time to be creative. And I know that maybe planning and carving out that time and creativity don't necessarily go hand in hand.
Cause obviously creativity at its core is something, you know, when the mood strikes you and when you feel a spark for something and actually putting time on that can be quite, a maybe strange thing to do, but it's something that's really worked for me. So, in terms of saying, right, I know I've got these couple of hours coming up when my husband might take my daughter out to the park or something.
And that kind of fills me with a sense of excitement and expectation that I know that I've got those couple of hours. So that kind of really helps, support that. I think there's a fine line between. Feeling that excitement and that expectation and not putting too much pressure on yourself within those two hours to create, because obviously then it can go the other way.
I can feel quite. paralyzed.
And in terms of, what supports it. So obviously that is that carving it out and having that time, but now she's older, it's definitely childcare. It's having that childcare, having that spare time. I'm not really one of those people that can be, very creative when I've got One eye on something and one eye on something else.
I really want to be very absorbed in what I'm doing to get the best of myself. So it is that carved out childcare and that's where I carve out the time as well. And then also my husband having a extremely flexible job and a very remote job as well. So I mean, shout out to the employers, who are really leaning into flex because obviously I'm freelance and I can work from home, but he has got Traditional employer who has leaned into that flexibility and that remote working, and by knowing it works for them.
So yeah, having him there a lot and having him able to take Polly for his lunch hour or, just take her out, you know, when he finishes at five, take her and I can just pop off and do what I need to do. So obviously that's two kind of very privileged, Things that help support my creativity.
So obviously , that childcare and the like supportive and flexible work from the partner. Uh, but if maybe you didn't have that, I would say it's things like, just like carving out that time. So nap times. any kind of support you could have even having a friend look after the little one for a couple of hours is so helpful and it makes all the difference honestly.
Zoe: Absolutely yeah so many people have said the thing that supports their creativity is just having people there to support it to help with the kids or to you know parent their kids or whichever it is yeah and I really like what you said about Kind of being efficient with your creativity, I think sometimes there's this idea that if you're a writer or an artist or whatever, you just create when the mood strikes and obviously you can get absorbed when you get the chance to, but you don't always have that chance and taking those half hour little pockets, and actually using them efficiently, I think is quite a hallmark of, creating in motherhood.
Ella: Totally, totally. You've got to take the time when you can, because when you have a baby, time pretty much isn't your own anymore. And, yeah, just got to take it when you can. I always say there's no one more efficient than a working mum.
Zoe: Yeah. If you want to get something done, ask a mum to do it.
And then the last question is more about how you use creativity and creative thinking in your mothering and in your parenting decisions.
Ella: Yeah, so that's quite a hard one because I was thinking about this and do you know what I find it quite funny for a creative person and for a writer, I'm actually not that imaginative, like in the moment, I kind of need to like sit and stew and think and noodle over something. And then the creativity for me comes out.
So, in terms of imaginative play, for example, I am getting on her level and understanding her needs and her expectations. How I sort of creatively do that is just, as I said, really getting down on her level, putting my phone away, because that's something that I'm like really, really struggling with.
It's just so easy to kind of switch off a little bit, but I'm just really trying to get off my phone and get down on her level, whether that means literally lying on the floor with her and seeing things from her level. And just really trying to tell myself that I'm not in a Truman show. No one's judging my weird and wacky stories. No one's judging my funny voices when we're doing pretend play. I think there's an air of self consciousness that I still have, which I feel is pretty, um, I don't know whether it's something I should have got rid of it two years, nine months down the line, but it's still there.
So I'm trying to, really let go of that to basically, you know, Engage in play with her. I think play is so important, obviously.
And then another way, and you said about sort of making creative decisions. So one of my really things I'm trying to do at the moment is use an intuitive no. So rather than my go to being no all the time is taking a moment to think, why am I saying no.
Is it something that my inner child is being triggered by whether that's like messy play, whether that's can we have cake for breakfast? Is it something that maybe I would have been told no as a child. And that's just something that I'm repeating. So it's just things like that. I'm just really trying to get creative with like, actually it doesn't have to be this way, it could be how I could say yes more. Not just for an easy life, I'm not talking about being permissive, but just about making her feel a little bit more involved in decisions. And also not just saying that straight, no, for no reason. So I always say, I'm not saying no for the sake of it.
So I don't know if you would say it's creative, but for me it feels creative, it feels like a different way of doing things and it makes me feel more like, my parenting is a collaborative effort with my daughter .
Zoe: Yeah, that definitely sounds like it's creative. I'd say similar to that , I think it's like picking your battles, like why am I actually saying no to this? Is there a reason, part of it is just An easy life, honestly, for me. Part of it is like, do you know what? Sure, fine, whatever, you can get in the paddling pool at 7am, doesn't matter, go for it.
Ella: Exactly, because what's the harm, really?
Zoe: Yeah, and I think that is a form of creative thinking, the sort of thing that it might have, in the past, as children, we might have been told, no, because I said so.
And I think that being open to the creative ways of being that children want to be can be quite creative.
Ella: I'm not really good at rounding these out. That's all right. Just say thanks, see you later.
Zoe: Yeah, thanks, see you later
Ella: perfect. Love it.
Zoe: Thanks for listening to Mother Creator. You can find me on Instagram at Zoe Pickburn. Please subscribe to the podcast. On Substack, it's free. And if you're enjoying the pod, please share it with your friends, it makes a massive difference.
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